How Audio Stories Build Literacy with Carla Herbertson, Co-Founder of Small Wardour

Why audio matters for young readers and how it can empower children’s literacy and critical thinking. In this episode, we are joined by Carla Herbertson, former BBC children's radio producer and co-founder of Small Wardour. Carla is a passionate advocate for accessibility, literacy and the power of audio to bring stories to life. She talks about why kids audio is booming, how publishers can build creative multi-platform story worlds, and what the industry must do to engage children where they are. Carla also shares the story behind Bust or Trust, the hit investigative mystery podcast teaching media literacy to 7 to 11 year olds, and explains why audio can be a vital first step in helping children become confident, joyful readers.

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Transcript

Gavin: 0:58

Hi folks, Gavin Summers here, co-founder of BookMachine, and welcome to the BookMachine Podcast. This is the show that is all about the people who make publishing happen. Our mission in each episode is to meet the movers and shakers from in and around the world of publishing and to tease out their best stories, their successes, their challenges, and their wisdom. With me as always is my co-host Gemma, lead marketing strategist at BookMachine. Hi Gemma.

Gemma: 1:22

Hi Gavin, how are you doing?

Gavin: 1:24

I'm very good, thank you. How are you?

Gemma: 1:27

I am desperately trying not to panic about the fact that it's only a few weeks until Christmas and I'm still very much in like it's autumn-October mode and the world's moved on and I haven't. Well, this this is this is the trap, Gavin. We're much closer than we think. Um and I'm distracting myself actually by listening to audio this week for the first time in ages, which I must recommend to everyone. If you haven't dug into a bit of audio recently, then what are you doing? Um yeah, there's some fantastic audiobooks out there at the moment. Are you much of an audio fan, Gavin?

Gavin: 2:04

Yes, yeah, I I'm absolutely an audiobook convert. So um, yeah, I'd often go on walks just as an excuse to listen to an audiobook.

Gemma: 2:13

Yes, I fully agree. Also, long car journeys are forever, forever changed by listening to audio. And on that note, neatly segueing in, I'd like to introduce uh Carla Herbertson, former BBC Children's Radio Producer and co-founder of Small Wardour. Welcome, Carla.

Carla: 2:31

Hello. Thank you very much for having me.

Gavin: 2:35

Well, thank you for joining us, um, Carla. And um, we'd just just like to start with the question that we ask all of our guests. Um, is there a book? Could you pinpoint one book that perhaps inspired you to work in the media?

Carla: 2:52

I didn't necessarily think books inspired me to work in smear media. I think stories did, um, creating stories or uh, you know, listening to stories, reading stories from a very young age. I was read too a lot when I was little. So my mum used to, I was, I think um, my mum used to put me on the potty when I was about 18 months old and just read loads and loads of stories to me that I then memorized, and that's how you know. So um, and then uh I I read a lot when I uh um I also used to go a lot to the library, um, but it wasn't a particular story, loads, it was just lots of being read to, and that inspired me to read probably more, and there was probably less things to do when I was little. So reading was like going to the library. I'm from the Netherlands, so we only used to go to school Wednesday morning, and uh then we'd uh be done by lunchtime, and then there wasn't that much to do, so you'd going to the library was like really exciting and kind of seeing what books are about. You know, did someone bring that book back that I really wanted to read and all of that, really? Um, so yeah.

Gemma: 4:07

A very, very different time. Also, I mean, I think maybe that's the first time we've had actual parenting advice on the podcast, Gavin. Um if you've got a captive audience, use it for some reading. I love it.

Gavin: 4:19

Yes, yes.

Gemma: 4:21

So, what was it that that first sparked your passion for the role of audio specifically in reading, Carla?

Carla: 4:28

Um, I think well, it started when I uh was working for the BBC as an assistant producer many, many years ago. I mean, this was in my mid-20s. Um, I was lucky enough, this was the start of all the digital radio stations, and so BBC 6 came around. Um, we had um Five Live uh extra. Um, we had um also BBC 7, which is now Radio 4 Extra, and they started um uh a children's programme, a live children's program called the Big Toe Radio Show, and they needed people and they wanted to interview people with lots who had lots of ideas, so it wasn't about you know all the experience you've had and needed to show, it was really about um what uh what ideas you could bring to the table, and um so we were seven days a week and a lot of uh it was like a live kind of magazine style program with lots and different um uh stories, rich stories, rich books. Um and so I really got into kind of the story element and making the books come to life from a very you know from my mid-twenties. I loved it. I loved reading kids' books and kind of expanding them um from um yeah, so uh you know, expanding them and and and adding music to them and sound effects and making them feel you know like part of the new worlds, you know. This could be classics or modern or um anything really. So yeah, so that's how it started, and then I I was there for a long time, was for go for it. That was at Radio Mod for a bit, but it's everything really like orally anyway. Radio is all about storytelling, isn't it? So it's about kind of persuade, not necessarily persuading, but kind of bringing something to someone's ears and and letting them imagine, and I think that's what's always got me. And then I moved to see BBZ and work was there for a long, long time, and was very much into kind of bringing kind of picture books to life from um and and creating audio dramas, so yeah, so it's been there for a long, long time, and then I moved in much later to kind of publishing, really. So I've come really more from the children's media, I've having children's media backgrounds, I don't really have a publishing background, although I do a lot with publishers now, and still brands and kids media as well.

Gavin: 7:00

So uh could you tell us a little bit about your your current company then and and and how that came about?

Carla: 7:07

Yeah, um so Small Wardour is a children's audio consultancy and production company, and um it is um was set up probably about four years ago, three, four years ago, um, with co-founder uh David Smith, who owns Wardour Studios. I had a consultancy then called Small Audio, so we kind of came together. Um, but it all kind of started in COVID. I was um head of international business development for um digital audio distributor called Zebrollution. So I travelled the world and was dealing with a lot of publishers worldwide. Um I still loved kids audio and I always kept kind of freelance jobs going. People were always asking me to produce things or kind of my ideas about, you know, creatively. But I was far and more in a business development world, and then I saw the rise of kids' devices, I saw the rise of kids audio, and I thought I could really offer something different, I could help when it comes to kind of shaping production, but at the same time, the business development side um also brings a uniqueness to our offer. So that's how we started, and now we help publishers worldwide and brands worldwide. Um, when it comes to audio, um could be audiobook strategy, could be platform, new platforms coming to the market, and they want to help with acquisitions or kind of a content strategy. It could be podcasting and brands, we've worked with Lego, you know, we've helped with script advising, so a lot of kind of different aspects. We produce content for Yoto and Tony's, um, we pitch ideas to them, um, but they also we do a lot of work for them when it comes to kind of content development or production. So, yeah, we kind of have quite a production kind of consultancy services, and then we also have our own um original podcast that we produce.

Gavin: 9:02

Fantastic, and and I wonder, um do you feel that audio can be a kind of powerful entry point for into literacy for for children?

Carla: 9:16

Yeah, I mean, I think we need to just um allow kids to read however they want to read and come to reading wherever they are reading. Uh that might be on Roblox, that might be playing games, that might be, you know, reading the subtitles of a television program, um, and or it might be through audio. I think audio is a very strong kind of supportive uh way to learn to read and to literacy. I think it um creates story worlds, it helps you with the imagination to kind of really make up this amazing world in your head and when you've been read to. I think that's really, really powerful. And I think a lot of people have that anyway, when they've reading or listen to something and then it comes to television, all of a sudden you kind of think, but that's not how I had it imagined. Um, and it's quite disappointing. Um, so I think you know, audio helps. I know from very, you know, um, National Literature Trust has done loads of research into it. Audio helps children um with their literacy, it helps them to read up if they are already able to kind of read, it helps them to keep up with their peers if they're not able to read these books just yet, but able to talk about it and introduce them to words that they, you know, it could help them with reading along if that's how they wanted to, but it's just I think more it's not about kind of getting them to go and read books, it's a just you know, we always have to imagine and actually um stories started orally, it they didn't start on print. So I think this whole obsession about print is sometimes a little bit too much, and I think we started talking and telling each other stories from a very, very long time ago, and yes, they came to print, but really originally um the stories were listened to, and I think that's really really powerful.

Gemma: 11:17

Couldn't agree more. Um, tell us about Bust or Trust. I I had a quick look at it um before we started talking, but can you tell us a bit about why you feel like it's resonated really strongly with the kind of seven plus age group?

Carla: 11:33

So Bust or Trust is our podcast uh for seven to eleven year olds. It's a kids mystery podcast. Um, what it does is it has two presenters, one is a mythbuster and the other one is a myth thruster. And you get um we every two weeks, every fortnight, we um discover a new case and you get three pieces of evidence, and um the presenters kind of go up against each other and debate um but really what it's about, and it's now nearing hundred thousand downloads a month. It's it started because we really wanted to do something around mysteries, but also because we saw what was happening in society after Brexit, after Trump coming to power for the first time, that we were all in our echo chambers and weren't really able to debate in a friendly, respectful way. I don't know if you remember the Brexit days, you were either, you know, um uh in or out, and and there wasn't really much to discuss. And I think there was a lot of kind of family arguments uh happened around that time, and I saw it's more of a reaction to that. It's also a reaction to what's happening in society in regards to where kids are getting their news, so it's about critical thinking, um, it's about um uh you know all and and and and being able to kind of form your opinion. So AI is going to be a huge part of our world, and you know, AI will write you amazing essays, but you still have to be able to say what you think and kind of underpin um your opinions with facts and and um and so that's kind of where it came from. And to be honest, it's actually if you listen to it, I don't necessarily think kids will think, oh, I'm listening to something and I'm critically thinking now, or I'm learning about bias, confirmation bias, or we explain all of these words, but we it's just fun, and it just helps kids, you know, learn to think about facts and and make up their own minds, because that's what it's all about. We don't tell them what to think at the end of the day. So if you know they want to believe in mermaids and fairies or Bigfoot, then that's okay because they feel that they have you know the facts to do so, and everyone should be allowed their opinion, and everyone should be able to, you know, form their opinion as long as it's done in a respectful manner.

Gavin: 15:37

Absolutely. Just just encouraging that that critical thinking and questioning is just so important. I feel that this Christmas is the one where the existence of Santa Claus is starting to get questioned by my my son.

Carla: 15:53

They'll still believe in it, they'll worry.

Gemma: 15:56

We've already had the debate.

Carla: 15:58

Anyway, Santa's Santa always there is no myth or busting about Santa. We we don't go near Santa. Santa exists for everyone, so yeah.

Gavin: 16:10

Um just just uh wondering the the kind of in-house productions, are they very much kind of part of the the strategy? Are you uh at a small order?

Carla: 16:21

Um, I think what we really wanted to do is not rely on one particular income stream, so we're very much um focusing on different sides of the services that we offer, and we find that sometimes we rely a lot on consultancy, which we've done in the past, and then other times it's more the productions that are coming in. Um, we're finding at the moment that there's a lot of creative consultancy, so publishers or kind of brands coming to the market, they really they want to do audio, but they don't really know how to kind of form their ideas or concepts, or um, so we we work a lot with that, and then we go and take that obviously into kind of the studio. So that's the kind of work that we're doing a lot at the moment, but you know, it kind of comes and goes in the sense and there's some other stuff that comes in, or some good kind of bread and butter kind of production or consultancy. Um, yeah, so it's it just depends really.

Gemma: 17:17

So, Carla, you've you've kind of already touched on you know meeting children, you know, where they actually are, and and I guess I'm interested to know what that means, sort of in practice for publishers, and given that potentially publishing as an intrigue can be a little bit slow off the mark in reacting to things. So I was just interested on your your take on that.

Carla: 17:39

Yeah, I think what I mean by meteing kids where they are, it's kind of the first principle of good distribution, if you think about it. I mean, this is something that kind of came more from my distribution background when I was working at Zebrollution, is that you cannot just put your book into one shop because not everyone is going to go into that shop. So, what you do is you put it into different shops. And the same counts for platforms and for where children actually are. So, if we're thinking about where kids are at the moment, they are on Roblox, they are on YouTube, they are they are sometimes in the library, they are at school, they are listening. So you have to, as a publisher, have to think slightly differently about books and about um how to get to your audience. And I think because of the publishing world tends to be quite slow when it comes to kind of responding to trends or when it comes to responding to what's happening within the industry that hasn't been done kind of properly. I mean, I haven't seen many, many publishers with a great um YouTube page, for example. Why not? Barefoot Books actually do this really well and they've spent quite a bit of money, and it's it is very much marketing, but that's where you should be. When you look at kind of the picture books they offer, a lot of them are sing-alongs. That works really, really well for that kind of early kind of preschool YouTube age. And you know, sadly, that's where kids are. Well, sadly, whatever, you however you might want to consume media, that's where they are. So go, you know, why not be there? Why not be there very strongly and have kind of direct links to where you can get your books. I think all of these things are incredibly important when we start thinking about how do we get stories to kids, not books to kids, but how do we get stories to kids? And sadly, I haven't really seen good practice of that anywhere, apart from probably Phoenix magazine, who are doing that really well. Um, although they are not necessarily on YouTube, but they have kind of started community building, and I think that's the key. If we're looking to kind of what's happening in the next kind of 10, five, ten years within publishing, I think a lot of for us, especially in podcasting, when it comes to kind of brand building, it's all about building your community, it's all about kind of treasuring who is listening or who is reading, and how can we get them to read or listen to the next episode, to the next book, or the next, or engage with the characters, etc. etc. And I think that's kind of missing a lot from publishing strategies. Now I understand why, because books are, you know, so many books are always are published, and it's it's almost like a sausage factory type, you know, um uh way of kind of bringing them out and launching them. So I know that we're coming on to this later, but for me, I think publishers need to start looking at how they can kind of brand their imprints and start kind of building those young communities around their imprints so they're kids recognize this is from their oh, I love that, I love they did this and I love that, and really start building those communities online. Um, and I don't mean on social media, but I mean within YouTube or where kids are. Um, I think that's going to be really, really important. And I think the Phoenix magazine does that really well with their events, they really draw their community in, and we do that as well with Bustle Trust. Kids want to be part of our podcast, they they send us voice notes and they want to be heard. Um, and I think publishing is kind of very one-dimensional um book, kid, kids there, family is there. The kid probably doesn't really buy the book, that goes through the parents. Um, you know, so it's one-dimensional. Once it's there, no one knows. We don't hear back, and I think that's what we're missing of that kind of community building type. Um, so it's kind of being where kids are, but the community building side of things is also very, very important when we start to looking at okay, what brands are going to kind of penetrate the market, and you know, how do we get kids engaged really?

Gavin: 22:15

Yeah, and and so so just for the the kind of children's publishers out there who may be listening, and kind of bringing together those those threads summarizing summarizing things, what what does are kind of truly Creative multi-platform uh uh community look like strategy look like for a children's publisher.

Carla: 22:38

God, I mean it's it's I'm not saying it's going to be easy, you know. I I just think this is the thinking that we need to start doing. Um it's gonna be tricky and it's gonna cost money, and that's the other part of it. It's hard making money as is within publishing. So I think it would require a total kind of change in operation. So I I can't just sit here and say this is what we need, and we just need to kind of think, okay, let's do digital, um, as in you know, YouTube, listening, and print. I think it's even it goes further than that, it goes back to the foundations of how we get books to kids, and I think that's what we need to start looking at, and how we kind of change the way we operate or the way we kind of get books to families. Um so I can't just say, sit here and say, I know it's very easy for me to say this is what you have to do, or this is what you need to start looking at. But the foundations have got to change because otherwise others would have done it already, and I think that's why it's a big challenge. Um, it's kind of looking, re-looking how how you publish and and simultaneous publishing across different platforms, and how can marketing get involved to to kind of you know, and again, it's you can't do this by every title because it will cost you a fortune. So, how are you going to do this as a publisher and how are you going to look at your imprint or maybe only a certain amount of books and you kind of make them the focal kind of part of your kind of publishing strategy, and the rest needs to kind of come along? Um, it's tricky, yeah. It's not going to be a five-minute dance.

Gemma: 24:25

That's really made me think. I mean, I I used to work for uh uh Penguin Random House Children's and on the Ladybird and Puffin imprints. Um, so a lot of this is connecting with with my experience in the past. But I mean, do you do you have a vision of what that might I mean working on kind of branded properties, as I know that you already do, how that could kind of you know be expanded out, like you say, to have that kind of connection with the brand as opposed to kind of individual elements. I mean, it was always something that you know that I worked on that it it's a difficult proposition for a publisher when they have, like you say, so many things coming out.

Carla: 25:04

I think it's probably easier as a brand because as a brand, you you know, so if for example, if we look at the work we've done, for example, with a Ninja uh Lego, it's a little bit easier. But uh, you know, they've got books, they've got magazines, they've got um, they're really focused, constantly focused on whoever is um consuming that. That's kind of their main focus. So when they started kind of doing a podcast or wanting to do a podcast, they started, they wanted to do something different, actually, they wanted to um do some audio kind of almost audio drama within, but it was behind a paywall, it's only for those really keen kind of consumers, these kids that love that brand and want to know everything about it. And I and so that's that's how they started doing that, and then came a podcast, and again it was only for that audience. So it it starts with community, probably, and it starts with looking at your community, and I I don't really know if a lot of publishers know who, you know, of course they do um surveys or do reports into kind of who is reading, but who are who are their core core audiences and and how how are they kind of communicating with them? And and are you in schools? Are you really in schools? Not just to visit, but like sweet cherry do this really well, and they've you know they've built up really strong connections with schools, and out of that came ideas like every cherry, which is amazing, just an um imprint for neurodivergent kids. And I think so. It's not that they went into school one day and they came back with that idea, it's kind of broad because all of these they're constantly trying to get feedback, they're constant, they're constantly with their audiences. I'm not sure if a lot of publishers are really like the whole team there with their audiences all the time. I think that's what you need to do because only then can you find out what works or what is needed or where the gaps are, or you know, how kids respond, or yeah.

Gavin: 27:19

Just a side note for the listeners on the Every Cherry um point. One of our previous podcasts was an interview with the originator of of that brand, so definitely, definitely worth a listen. Um, Carl, I wonder do you think kids audio struggles to gain kind of full support um within publishing?

Carla: 27:41

And I, you know, yes, it struggles. I think it's coming. I think finally people are kind of you know, when the National Literacy Trust uh report came out at the beginning of this year, probably it was about March, it was before London Book Fair, and it said um more kids are listening than they are reading. I thought, okay, my work here is done. I'm going to get an influx of publishers coming to me that say, right from now on, we're going to do lots of audio, we're gonna none of that. I mean, you know, maybe a little, but there was a bit more interest, and there has been a bit more interest in this kind of year, and also kind of leading up to the year of um reading, but I just it's still the appetite is still not there, or they think, oh, we can't do that, we can't do non-fiction in audio, so we won't. Or literally a publisher said to me in Frankfurt, kids need to read our books, our books are there to be read, and no one has ever no kid has ever asked us for audio. It's because they don't know, they don't know what to ask for, but you need to be able to offer it. So I think there's a lot of work still needs to get done, and I also think that it's got to do with money, obviously, and I get that. Um, the payoff is not as direct, uh, and it you know, the return on investment is not as good as um as as as books are, not yet. Um, and that is tricky, and it's hard to make money out of audio straight away. It takes about probably 80 to 2 years, 80 months to two years to get your money back from a production perspective. Um, so it's not going to make you lots and lots of money, but kids who listen to audio will pick up the book and read that book because they want to. Um you need to be accessible and you need to be able to reach children that might be reluctant readers, that might get scared of a book, but actually would want to listen to the audio. I think it's just about offering different ways of consuming the stories. And why would you not do that? So it needs to be maybe a bit of part of marketing, it needs to be part of you know, PL, but um and I don't I don't tell publishers to basically do their whole catalogue in audio, but I always say, why don't you start and test? You know, if you're very tiny, do five to ten books. I would always say ten, but kind of look at different genres, uh age groups, um different, you know, adventure, whatever, whatever you have, and and just try and then kind of see what happens. Um but audio is always kind of seen as an afterthought, and I think audio can be far more powerful as it's marketed with kind of the launch of a new book. Um so yeah, I think it's a shame that it's still seen as a it's just it's an extra cost, and that's the first cost when you get down the line of the PL, the first one will go, we can't afford that. And so that actually means that you're cutting off your audience, you're cutting off a part of your community, and that's what I mean by you need to start looking from the community's perspective and not from the perspective of uh, you know, the um start really changing those foundations because I think that would be a wrong thing to do. But I have been really lucky and fortunate to have over the last couple of months to have new publishers come to us and really wanting to do this, not only because they feel they have to, but also because they just really want to be accessible, and that's really a world where we need to move to.

Gemma: 31:39

Yeah, I agree. Um, I'm on a mild tangent in in the area of books that I personally read um around romance. I'm seeing a lot more audio first marketing, or certainly in conjunction with print an e-book, and people really valuing having certain narrators in their books and really sort of getting behind a publisher, making sure this narrator is going to be on this title because they're really attached to their voice and they can't wait to hear what the character sounds like in that voice. And I think you know, those those readers inevitably are parents or will become parents, and and that hopefully that love of audio will also spill down into what they would like for their kids. And so if it's not yet happening, I'm pretty certain it's it's following um and it and it's coming. But um, it's certainly in terms of you know, school curriculum, um, is there a kind of the new curriculum is there a focus on media liter literacy and what sort of opportunities are there around that? Do you think that's something to be explored?

Carla: 32:45

Yeah, there's a focus on so with the announcement of the new curriculum came a couple of weeks ago. Um, we that we should be focusing more on uh media literacy. Uh and I'm talking about this this is across all key stages, but I think I'm talking really more about uh key stage one and two, and um ORSC, there should be an RC framework embedded within the curriculum as well. I think ORC is a really, really important part of that. Um listening and to be able to talk, uh you know, form your opinions, but also to listen. So um, from my perspective, when it comes to Bustel Trust, I'm really pleased in a sense, but I think there is still a lot that needs to get done, and there's uh there's going to be a statement in a cup uh next week from uh a lot of organisations, including us, whereby we give some more feedback on the on the actual um suggestions uh for the curriculum. But it's a it's a good step forward that we are going to, but it it needs to be a bolster framework when it comes to media literacy. You can't just kind of say, well, let's just so how is that going to happen? And at the cost of what? What what is going to go? And um and you know, primary school's teachers are already stretched and and trying to fit as much in as possible. But I think the whole AI conversation also needs to be part of this and not just kind of it, you know, kids need to learn how to use it and they need to need to know the the the tricky parts of it and and the and the good bits and the bad bits and everything that comes with it. And I think that's in in regards to media literacy, it's that's what it's about. The critical thinking um is going to be so important moving forward. Um, I don't know about you, but I think a lot of children, when they now look up something on Google or Chat GPT, they just think that that's a fact, they don't kind of go and think, okay, well, I might just need to verify that, you know. So um I'll just look it up on ChatGPT, it's fine, and that's just not it. And I think um we have a lot to do when it comes to kind of engaging our brains um a little bit further about news, about stories, about anything really. Um but you can do that in a really fun way, and with Buster Trust, we have uh parental um parental um education resources for schools and parents. Um uh um which uh they're called How to Be a Chief Detective, and it takes you through all the steps of critical thinking and thinking in grey and introduces you to thinking in grey and in a really fun way. So um, yeah, there is a lot to be done. I'm just a bit worried about what it's going to look like, and and um and I I wanted to be bold and brave and not just like, oh, now we're gonna do critical thinking a little bit like reading for pleasure. That wasn't really for me, that's not like you know, kids get told in schools when to read for 10 minutes. Well, I don't know about you, but if someone tells me to you now need to read for 10 minutes, and this is going to be fun, then actually, no. I you have to be in a certain mood to be able to access your kind of karma brain and to kind of take in words and take in scenery through words and things like that. You know, a 15-minute kind of this is our reading time, so all now go and read just doesn't do the trick, I think. So I hope it's not going to be put in, forced in like that. Um yeah.

Gavin: 36:42

Yeah, so there's some decline in reading for pleasure that teachers and parents, including myself, are worried about. Uh, how how can audio help kind of you know reignite the love of stories?

Carla: 36:55

Um I think it should be given as you should be allowed to listen to stories, and I think we should have them in schools more. And I I'd love kids to be able to go, you know, sit in a corner in a beanbag and put some headphones on and just drift away for a little bit listening to a story. Wouldn't that be amazing? Rather than just being told, you know, open that book and read that paragraph and they struggle a little bit with reading, or you know, I think yeah, it's tricky because you know, we have to also be very, very honest. I don't read as much more as I used to do. So kids kind of copy our behaviour, you know. Um, I don't know about you, but when kids grow up, you if they see you iron or cook or all of these things, they want to do the same things. But if you don't, if they don't see you read, then why would they read? I mean it's very simple. And and I don't read as much anymore, or hardly, because I'm distracted all the time running a business and having my phone and kind of squeezing that email in and doing this and doing that and organizing 101 things for all the kids, and that's also on my phone. So I think it's a little bit um I always feel like we put the blame on them, but actually it's us, it's it's about kind of us showing how can we help show the right way, right? Um it's yes, it's a problem that not as many kids are reading, but not as many adults are as well. And um I think audio has been a really I mean you know the rise of Yoto and Tony's has been amazing. It's introducing kids to audio from a very early age, and hopefully they will kind of keep growing and go from those platforms to Spotify and Audible and become listeners and readers. That's been really, really positive. Um the sad thing for me is that these devices are very expensive, and so we're only kind of reaching a part of our audience that has money, and um I I want that to be different. So I wish there was that you know, audio will filter through a little bit more within society and make it a bit more part of our we already listen to the radio and a bit more part of our day, um, especially at school, but um yeah, I think that will help. Um we're on the right track, and I do think listeners will turn into readers, so it's not going to cannibalize print at all. Um, yeah. We need to be, like I said, we need to be where all the kids are, and we also need to really have a hard look at ourselves and decide if we are very honest about all of this. And we're like, oh, all these kids are not reading anymore. Well, yeah, why is that?

Gemma: 40:01

Yeah, it's really funny you should say that because a few weeks ago I had a chat with my seven-year-old, and he I'd been reading on my Kindle, but he didn't realise that's what it was. He thought it was just a mini iPad and that I was doing work on it. And I obviously showed him and and was and he was really interested that I could just get books in there. Um, but I decided to switch to actual physical books so that they could. And I often I read while they're doing stuff in the evening because I want to, but also because they've started well, my my little one has started to sit with me now, and and I also write. And when I'm writing on my laptop, he'll kind of sit next to me and he'll get a document up on his uh screen and start just doing some random, random stuff on there as well. And the modelling thing is is more important, I think, than any of us realise. Um, but I guess in terms of publishers and and going back to what we were talking about, what advice would you potentially give them if they want to experiment with audio but are not sure where to begin and also what developments are around at the moment that are kind of exciting you and that might excite publishers to know about?

Carla: 41:14

Oh, I think um I would start with by giving us a call and we will help. Um, but no, I um, you know, it's tricky. I think it depends on what type of you know children's publisher you are, but it I would start looking at your catalogue, I would start looking at your evergreens, your classics, the bestsellers. I would decide on, you know, 10 books that I wanted to bring out in audio and try one of them to be simultaneous publishing and the other one maybe, you know, that catalogue or things that you know that do well. I would um make sure that one of them is a series because if kids like one, they would want to go on to the other straight away. So record two of those uh or three and um and and just use it as an experiment. Um and also produce the content because I've I've heard a lot, I've been part of a lot of kind of judging panels, listening to kids audio, and in particular one book that uh has done really well when it comes to um reaching kids in print, but not so in in audio, and I I I just think that a lot of the time we produce audio like it's just the print, you know, it's just the book in audio, and it there's no additional, you know, the text isn't altered, or you know, sometimes you need to add a bit more narration, or you need to change some wordings, you need to make sure in words, or you need to you need to make sure that it becomes an audio product, it stands on its own, it doesn't need the book to kind of you know sell it sell itself. Um, so put time and effort um into them, just like you would with a book, not an afterthought. I think my my first one would be take care, don't let it be an afterthought. If you're going to put money into it, do it well and just really think about a strategy of what you want to achieve. What is your goal? Is it just to test? Is it to reach a certain audience? Is it to kind of create a bit of a community? All of these things, you know. Um, build up a bit of a strategy around this is why we're doing it, not just kind of pick five and then think, oh, whatever. Um, then nothing will happen with that because the intention is not there. You would never do that to a book, you would never go, like, oh whatever. Just let's hope, let's drop some in and let's hope they land. Um, I think it audio needs the same kind of care as as a print version does. Um, so that's where I would start. But there's a lot more to it than that. Yeah, I've been in this industry for a long time, and I'm excited about um what Yoto is doing, and they really think about their community as well and then their their growth, and they um congratulations to them yesterday at the speakease, they they won uh audio business of the year, and they also won the children's um uh best children's book um as well for Miffy, their Miffy collection. Um I I love what they're doing. I think they're really responding to their audience, to their to the parents who are really getting involved with it as well. Um, that is great. I think there's going to be more more more kind of devices maybe coming to the market. But the other for me, I just still haven't seen innovative um ways of engaging with kids on kind of digital platforms like Roblox. I think that for me that would be so exciting. There was a there's a game currently game on Roblox that a lot of kids are playing called 99 Nights in the Forest, and I keep mentioning it to everyone, maybe one of the publishers out there. Go and check it out. It's a great title.

Gemma: 45:05

I've already played on it with myself.

Carla: 45:08

It's yeah, it's it and it's amazing storytelling. Yeah, it's amazing storytelling, and so you know, what are we doing there when it comes to you know print and audio? And you know, I I started I started going down a rabbit hole thinking, Oh my god, I need to find who who owns this, let's do something, whatever. And then I thought, I'm not a publisher, why am I doing this? And so, you know, I but those are you know, you have to be in these spaces, and I haven't seen that yet. I haven't seen those spaces, the you know, the digital kind of gaming spaces being utilized well enough in print and also in audio. Um, I think Audible was doing something at one stage that you can they were part of a maybe this was a game where there are different shops and stuff, and there was an Audible game, I don't know. But yeah, I I think there's a lot of things that you could do with these worlds. It's tricky because um Roblox is not necessarily a safe platform, and um so you you'd need to be you need to kind of adhere to all those guidelines, the copper ones and whatever. But I I um that is where kids are, and so we need to be there too.

Gavin: 46:23

Yeah, meeting kids were there, absolutely. Um thank you, Cara. That was that really was a fascinating conversation. Thanks for joining us.

Carla: 46:31

No worries, thank you for having me.

Gavin: 46:33

Thank you, and uh thank you, Gemma. Uh thanks to Suzanne for the logistics, and thanks to you for listening. We'll catch you on the next episode of the BookMachine Podcast.